Curse

Iron Monkey · Nov 05, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Been away for three years, feeling a bit rusty, and I've lost my skill templates, so need advice on a healer build, for babysitting guild members in general PVE.

Words Of Comfort
Ethereal Light
Dwayna's Kiss
Draw Conditions
Shield Of Absorption
Healer's Boon
Resurrection Chant

Maybe missing a party heal...

Thanks.

afya · Nov 05, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

pretty much it
you may replace SoA with Seed of Life.
Maybe drop a heal and bring heal party too

WarcryOfTruth · Nov 05, 2010, 06:06 PM // 18:06

You should only need a party heal if you do not have a designated front line (whether a tank or otherwise). Generally, I never have a party heal unless I know my party will not have some sort of front line damage sponge.

Iron Monkey · Nov 05, 2010, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Seed of life, forgot about that one

Lanier · Nov 05, 2010, 06:11 PM // 18:11

HB is ok, but if you are using a hybrid, I would suggest Word of Healing or Zealous Benediction (ZB if you would rather use Gift of health as your secondary heal). SoA is also really good, I would suggest dropping the rez for Seed of Life as it isn't the monk's job to rez anyway. If you absolutely must have a rez for emergencies, carry a few scrolls in your inventory.

Oh, and finally, Aegis is really good in general PvE. If you choose to go with WoH or ZB, then these will replace one of your heals (in the first three spots). You can then use the extra skill slot opened up by HB's removal to add in Aegis.

Nekodesu · Nov 05, 2010, 06:17 PM // 18:17

I think these two are very good. They are meta thought. BTW on the WoH one you can swap SoA or PS for Aegis for example.

Xenomortis · Nov 05, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

One decent spot heal on each (and DKiss is too conditional for an "oh shit" scenario), only one important prot, one condition removal and no hex removal.
That's pretty bad. If those two bars are supposed to be used together then they're simply terrible.

The OP is fairly crap too. Running Healer's Boon without Heal Party just seems stupid - you're better off with Word of Healing.

WoH
DKiss/Patient
Seed of Life
Prot Spirit
Aegis
GoLE
Optional
Optional

Optionals can either be cleaning, extra energy management or something like Shield of Absorption or Patient/DKiss (three heals shouldn't be really necessary though).
Don't bother with a res. You won't have the time to cast it mid-fight and you really want the space for other things.

Premium Unleaded · Nov 05, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Don't use HB nor take a res, use WoH and something actually useful in no.8 slot if hybriding. I'd go

WoH, DKiss/Patient, Prot Spirit, SoL, then 4 of these depending on circumstances - Cure Hex, Dismiss/Draw, SoR, SoA (10 prot), Selfless, VS, Aegis (use with GoLE and pick two others)

Nekodesu · Nov 05, 2010, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

One decent spot heal on each (and DKiss is too conditional for an "oh shit" scenario), only one important prot, one condition removal and no hex removal.
That's pretty bad. If those two bars are supposed to be used together then they're simply terrible.

The OP is fairly crap too. Running Healer's Boon without Heal Party just seems stupid - you're better off with Word of Healing.

WoH
DKiss/Patient
Seed of Life
Prot Spirit
Aegis
GoLE
Optional
Optional

Optionals can either be cleaning, extra energy management or something like Shield of Absorption or Patient/DKiss (three heals shouldn't be really necessary though).
Don't bother with a res. You won't have the time to cast it mid-fight and you really want the space for other things.

LOL! In PvE you rarely need any conditon or hex removal either way

Xenomortis · Nov 05, 2010, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekodesu

LOL! In PvE you rarely need any conditon or hex removal either way

No, you generally don't. However a spot removal is still useful.
This doesn't change the fact those two bars are still pathetic.

I notice the WoH bar added after my initial post. Much better, but could do with the res being cut for something more useful.

Ensign · Nov 05, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

The only reason to run either Healer's Boon or Unyielding Aura is to get usable party heals; HB + Heal Party + GoLE for the former, UA + Divine Healing + Heaven's Delight for the latter. If you aren't powering party heals with them, those elites are useless and you should just use Word (or ZB if you are the only Monk).

You never need 3 spot heals on your bar. You only need one the majority of the time, and the second one is the worst skill on your bar and you probably made a mistake if you're using it much. If you're using non-elite, non-Gift heals a lot then you are not spending your time and energy on the prots and cleaning to stop that damage in the first place; that can quickly snowball, as spot heals just cannot keep up with unmitigated damage from all but the most trivial foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No, you generally don't. However a spot removal is still useful.

I think it's often overlooked that the spot removals are the best heals on your bar. Dismiss or Mend are going to be healing for around 90 on top of pulling a condition (or in the case of Dismiss, even without the condition); Cure Hex heals 150 or so. These are both reasonably good heals for their costs even without the removal; with the removal they are far and away the best heals you can use when relevant.

The mindset is backwards. Yes, you can get away with spamming Orison through a lot of PvE. But that's the floor of effectiveness. You really want to be using *everything else* on your bar as much as possible, and only use those spot heals to clean up what slips through. So when someone says 'I don't need Dismiss because I have Dwayna's and Patient', I think, 'funny, I don't need Dwayna's and Patient because I have Dismiss'.

Racthoh · Nov 06, 2010, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nekodesu

LOL! In PvE you rarely need any conditon or hex removal either way

They're essentially another form of mitigation; a clean party will wipe enemies faster, ergo less incoming damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think it's often overlooked that the spot removals are the best heals on your bar. Dismiss or Mend are going to be healing for around 90 on top of pulling a condition (or in the case of Dismiss, even without the condition); Cure Hex heals 150 or so. These are both reasonably good heals for their costs even without the removal; with the removal they are far and away the best heals you can use when relevant.

With the exception of Restore Conditions I can't bring myself to bring a condition removal when I play monk in PvE. The function of the removal itself can be mimicked through party heals where disease, poison, bleeding, and burning are considered. The party heal also provides a more universal use in a larger variety of situations making its worth on the bar far greater. Where those conditions would prove troublesome (spread over the party in bulk), Dismiss or Mend lack the strength to combat it effectively. Additionally, it takes time for those four conditions to reach the point where Dismiss/Mend would prove as effective as a Word of Healing, not to mention by the time combat reaches that threshold the key threats of the group should've been eliminated (generously assuming said conditions are applied the instant a group is engaged also).

There is an argument to be had for Blind concerning a party dependent of "Save Yourselves!". However the nature of its application either render the removal meaningless (Blinding Flash spam) or is better suited to a skill with a more universal use (interrupt). Alternatively such a party composition can instruct their shout user to pull out a wand and trick the AI. Cracked Armor and Deep Wound are non-issues as their relevance requires action only when the sufferer is the focus of attack at which point prot is already on/on its way. Weakness does very little to hinder a physical, by which I mean anyone running a physical heavy party where Weakness would prove an issue is running +damage multipliers and Weakness does nothing to reduce those values. Dazed is just too uncommon to make an argument for the monk being the one to remove it, and Cripple is more of a PvP concern. On top of everything else you must consider that Dismiss/Mend possess a single removal property which greatly reduces their reliability when dealing with these non-damaging conditions. Given the frantic nature of combat at times I don't want a skill that might not get what I wanted it to.

I'm not suggesting conditions can outright be ignored as if their effects are trivial to success. What I will say is that if you want to combat conditions consider either Restore Conditions to combat the degeneration effects and snag whatever is causing troubles in the event its covered, or other tools amongst the other party member's bars. Consider that an interrupt can prevent the application of a condition/hex and mitigate incoming damage, its not strictly limited to a single function. Monk bars don't have a lot of wiggle room and it's important to make the most of every single slot.

Ensign · Nov 06, 2010, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

The party heal also provides a more universal use in a larger variety of situations making its worth on the bar far greater.

What party heal are you running on a Word bar that feels like it's worth anything? Nothing I've tried felt worthwhile without Boon/UA boosting it.

I agree that Dismiss (or Mend) is hardly sufficient in heavy condition situations (ala EotN) as far as cleaning goes. It's also not going to compete with Word on heals. But it does compete with the rest of the crappy heals in Healing Prayers. I'd argue that if you're not going to run Dismiss, you shouldn't be running any other single target heals either, and just ride the Word.

Which is perfectly reasonable, I often don't bother with anything other than Word myself (though RoF is important for buying time in that case). Word carries a huge healing load and the Prots you can run are much more important than your backup heal/removal.

Iron Monkey · Nov 07, 2010, 12:00 AM // 00:00

As far as I remember, monking is a two man job. Usually, I'll get a hero to do the cheap spam heals, and I do the prot job, as it's more interesting and rewarding, and heroes just can't do it properly. I get a lot less bitching that way, and everyone's happy.

Heroes can spam heals all right, and even use heal party pretty well. It's tough being a solo monk, looking after the bars, and the pink and grey stuff. Either way, something's gonna have to give.

Well, I suppose that's the point of Guild Wars and their 8 slot restriction.

Mouse at Large · Nov 07, 2010, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Personally speaking, as a midline squishy, I'd rather my redbar didn't go down as opposed to down then back up again

Ensign · Nov 07, 2010, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Monkey

Heroes can spam heals all right, and even use heal party pretty well. It's tough being a solo monk, looking after the bars, and the pink and grey stuff. Either way, something's gonna have to give.

Well, oftentimes when there are conditions or hexes coming from a mob, they're spammed, poured onto your team. When that's happening nothing you can do, short of devoting your elite to it, is going to help. Dismiss is just a comical thing to pull out against EotN Mandragors, for the gratuitous example. When that happens, you really just want to ride the Word as hard as you can and not bother pulling conditions that'll go right back on. In those cases you're going to want a Necro or Ritualist to deal with all the conditions piling on, and for hexes...well, there really isn't a great solution for hexes.

Of course, at the same time, there are a lot of areas and situations where you do get stray conditions or hexes, and removing them is incredibly efficient and a great use of your energy, and in those situations Mend/Cure shine.

--

Thinking about it more, I'm wondering if most players just are not used to playing with party healing on the team. You approach things a lot differently when you have a party heal or two stashed somewhere that'll get used when needed. Party heals are by far the most efficient way to move the bars back up, and you should let them do the heavy lifting when you're playing alongside them.

What that means is restraining the instinct to throw an Orison at the guy at 80% who isn't in any danger. Instead you want to focus on Prot, and moving people up out of the danger zone when they fall into it. You don't want to be 'topping off' someone's health once they're safe. Instead, resist the urge, focus on the prot, and wait for the party heal to come in and fill everyone's health bar.

When someone's low, you Word them. This won't completely fill their health, but it should put them at 80% or so unless they were dangerously low. At this point, do NOT throw a Patient or Kiss or whatever to top them off, unless they're still getting pummeled and you expect their health to immediately start dropping again. Instead, consider your job done and wait for the emergency - after a few more saves and stabilizes, the party heal will come in, and do the rest of the job you were going to waste precious energy on for you.

If you stop topping off bars, you might notice a couple of things - that you have a ton of energy all of a sudden, and that you're not using your secondary heals very often, or only in situations where it doesn't matter and you're being lazy. Congratulations, you've gotten better!

Xenomortis · Nov 07, 2010, 11:50 AM // 11:50

At what spec do have Protection?
From your posts I gather you ride Word as much as possible - using it to mop up the big hits that get through so you're not overhealing with it. From that I would presume a high Healing Prayers spec.
Dismiss and Mend only start beating the other heals at 12+ Protection (I hit 13 on my RC Prot bar) and you're only going to get that by cutting Divine Favour almost completely.

LifeInfusion · Nov 07, 2010, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I am very interested in this discussion because lately I have not been running any prots other than Prot Spirit (used rarely) and Aegis.

I feel SoA is good because of the cooldown (~60% of the time it can be up) but it is fairly hard to use in Hard mode without an element of tanking involved (like Seed of Life). I think the main reason why Seed is used so much is because you are pushed down in prot spec to make UA work properly.

With an Imbagon in the team, there's less need for party healing on the monk that is not bulk (~90-100 HP), which is why I feel Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight is lacking without UA.

I tried running RC at 12 spec in Shards of Orr HM, arguably the most condition heavy area, but RC healed only about 100 most of the time (2 conditions) with a few cases of 200. So the reason it is better than UA in that case is that it cleans conditions and has prots (at the expense of no decent party heal). That matters more with teams that have physicals (imbagon) since blind /weakness take a toll.

RC spec was: 11+1+1 DF, 11+1 prot, 8+1 heal (gift of health)

When I go WoH I use 12+1+1 Heal, 9+1 prot, 9+1 DF , with SoA, Prot spirit.

However when you run the numbers, 94 heal before DF isn't all that great so you pretty much have to hit people <50% HP. You could run Ethereal Light and get more than that (142 under HB). So it pretty much hinges on how good you are at hitting people still below <50%HP after the DF heal, without them dying. Meanwhile, you could slap Patient Spirit on anyone who is at 75% and is taking damage and heal for 180ish (which is less than the 194 WoH heals for after meeting the <50% condition but not by much).

If you're playing with another monk, it is likely they will be topping off bars even when you have Patient Spirit on people, which makes prot superior in general. When two monks have Patient Spirit, most of the time the heals are overkill.

For all intents and purposes, the UA bar might as well just be UA+ Divine Healing. A lot of monks in PUGs seem to think that UA is for orison spam / patient spirit/ Ethereal light, which bothers me.

EDIT: The caveat here is that the UA bar needs a spot heal for NPCs and if it is the only monk you can't get by with just a party heal.

I was playing in Thirsty River HM and a monk had a UA bar with Divine Healing + Heaven's Delight and no spot heal, just Dismiss Condition. At the least there ought to be Dwayna's Kiss.

Iron Monkey · Nov 07, 2010, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

When someone's low, you Word them. This won't completely fill their health, but it should put them at 80% or so unless they were dangerously low. At this point, do NOT throw a Patient or Kiss or whatever to top them off, unless they're still getting pummeled and you expect their health to immediately start dropping again. Instead, consider your job done and wait for the emergency - after a few more saves and stabilizes, the party heal will come in, and do the rest of the job you were going to waste precious energy on for you.

If you stop topping off bars, you might notice a couple of things - that you have a ton of energy all of a sudden, and that you're not using your secondary heals very often, or only in situations where it doesn't matter and you're being lazy. Congratulations, you've gotten better!

The fear is the spike on the low health player. I've noticed that a lot in HM in Factions (since that's what I've been playing since coming back).

That's where I find my prots most useful. I can negate spikes pretty well now. Infuse on the other hand would be complete OTT in PvE, as well as attracting unwanted attention.

You may scoff at my puny skills now!

That's for HM. I dont usually bother with spirit bond in NM, and prefer Aegis (and drop SoL obviously).

EDIT : Ignore health. New armor, forgot my sup vigor

Lanier · Nov 07, 2010, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Spirit bond and Prot spirit in one build? That seems kind of like overkill to me, even in HM. I would pick one and run SoA over the other. Shield of Absorption is soooooo good when used correctly, and can really save you a lot of work and energy.

Also, I strongly, strongly advise monks not to bring a rez. Monk skill bars are already cramped anyway, and rezzing is not the job of the monk. The job of the monk is to keep people from having to be rezzed. Leave ressurecting to your midline.